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Thinking of switching over to valium eventually


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Hi, This is Mishi,  I am weaning off klonipin very slowly started off with 3mg and now down to 2.75mg.  I taper .0625 every 6 days which means every 12 days it equals ot 0.125.  I think this is slow.  I am already having withdrawal symptoms do have some on and off little waves, but why withdrawals at a slow pace, or is it side efffects also.  At one time i was at this detox center where they put me on very high doses of valium and i felt no withdrawals i was only on valium at that time for 9 days but when i returned home that day i was so addicted to the valium that i was never detoxed properly.  I then found a doctor who gave me valium but i did not take the doses the detox center had given me so i went into severe withdrawal from the valium and decided to go cold turkey from valium.  I became deadly sick.  Now i do not know if the valium did not agree with me or it was just the cold turkey and not taking the doses I was taking originally at the detox center which made me feel good at that time.  Eventually i feel like it might be a good idea to switch to valium.  What do you think.  Should i be feeling affects and withdrawal now from the klonipin even though i am weaning off slowly, and eventually do you think i could try the valium switch.  I am allitle scared but maybe it was because i kept changing the doses of the valium when i returned home from the detox that made me sick.  I am confused because i am still in pain from the klonipin and i want to know if this is normal.  I thank you so much for all of your help and support bb.
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Mishi -

 

No one gets out of this benzo mess without withdrawal symptoms, so yes, it is usual for you to have some symptoms even though you are doing a somewhat slow taper.  BTW, you might want to try doing .0625mg reductions every 10=14 days instead of .125mg.  Klonopin is a pretty strong benzo so your cuts have not been small and klonopin has a pretty long half-liofe so waiting longer between cuts may help as well. 

 

I don't know what to tell you about your previous experience with valium and the advisability of crossing over in the future.  I know there are a lot of people who swear by the valium crossover method and others who prefer titration if dry cutting doesn't work.  I fall in the latter category for a couple of reasons, including some people do have a bad reaction to valium and have to cross back to their original benzo and it draws out the taper time longer.  Have you looked into titration as an alternative slower method of tapering down the road?

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hi, this is mishi,  Is there most likely a good chance if you switch from klonipin to valium you will have a better experience or are you taking a risk.  I had a bad experience at a detox center with valium but i am not sure if the valium did not agree with me or was it the way they tried to detox me.  Do some people just stay on the klonipin and go thru it, or is valium the answer.  I do not know anymore.  Can I still have bad withdrawals with valium anyway.  Thank you so much for your help bb.
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Hi Mishi,

 

Switching from Klonopin to Valium is a tricky process. Many people have much success with it, while others say they wish they would have stayed on their original benzo. There is some risk involved and yes it is a gamble. This whole process, though, is a bit of a gamble and much of it is trial and error.

 

TC

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi -

 

The reasoning for a Valium taper is explained here:

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashvtaper.htm

REASONS FOR A DIAZEPAM (VALIUM) TAPER

Professor C Heather Ashton DM, FRCP

April 2001

 

Somewhere in Dr. Ashton's info I also remember reading that she saw a lower incidence of suicide when tapering with Valium.

 

Best wishes!

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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.  If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.
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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.   If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.

 

Note that 0.5mg of klonopin is equivalent to 10mg of valium according to the ashton manual.  What's the downside to that? It makes tapering easier then the "longer titration".

Also, as for adverse reactions, i have yet to meet one.  The benefits outweigh the risks IMO.  I did the crossover and highly recommend it.

I also recommend that you wisely consider advise you receive and weigh the advise of those that have been through a similar crossover and taper greater than the advise from those with no personal experience with crossing over to valium and tapering and/or titrating.

 

I  understand that BB forum rules preclude us from giving advice about non-benzo meds we don't have personal experience with; however, that doesn't seem to apply to benzo cross overs, titrations and tapers.  So, proceed with caution and use your own best judgment.

 

peace,

libby

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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.   If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.

 

Note that 0.5mg of klonopin is equivalent to 10mg of valium according to the ashton manual.  What's the downside to that? It makes tapering easier then the "longer titration".

Also, as for adverse reactions, i have yet to meet one.  The benefits outweigh the risks IMO.  I did the crossover and highly recommend it.

I also recommend that you wisely consider advise you receive and weigh the advise of those that have been through a similar crossover and taper greater than the advise from those with no personal experience with crossing over to valium and tapering and/or titrating.

 

I  understand that BB forum rules preclude us from giving advice about non-benzo meds we don't have personal experience with; however, that doesn't seem to apply to benzo cross overs, titrations and tapers.  So, proceed with caution and use your own best judgment.

peace,

libby

 

You are right, Libby.  I don't have direct personal experience with ctossing over to valium, just 3 years of reading 1000s of posts on this forum.  Even though you don't know about them, there have been some members who had to cross back from valium to their original benzo due to adverse reactions. 

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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.   If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.

 

This is not a downside Beeper. It's an upside. A 5mg diazepam tablet is roughly .25mg Klonopin. So when one gets down to 10mg diazepam cutting 2mg pills is an advantage over klonopin. 1 mg of diazepam is roughly equal to 1/20 mg of klonopin. Ever try to cut a .5mg Klonopin tab in 10 pieces?

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Hello All,

 

You usually only hear the horror stories of people doing a c/o. It was easy for me and I did a direct c/o with no withdrawal and minimal s/x. My s/x was, and still is to some degree, grogginess in the morning and I had to double up on my coffee intake. So I repeat... the crossover was a piece of cake for me. I am not bragging but I want it to be known that there are plenty of people like me. We usually only hear the horror stories. I atttempted a straight taper of Klonopin many times and this has been easier to date.

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Hello All,

 

You usually only hear the horror stories of people doing a c/o. It was easy for me and I did a direct c/o with no withdrawal and minimal s/x. My s/x was, and still is to some degree, grogginess in the morning and I had to double up on my coffee intake. So I repeat... the crossover was a piece of cake for me. I am not bragging but I want it to be known that there are plenty of people like me. We usually only hear the horror stories. I atttempted a straight taper of Klonopin many times and this has been easier to date.

 

Well stated benzene, I agree completely.

peace,

libby

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Hello Mishi,

I think many have bad experiences about crossing over just because they have done it too fast. You might end up with some severe w/d symptoms during cross over if not done slowly enough. But as benzene said, it can also be easy. I would still recommend a slow c/o just in case.

 

Klonopin's half life is about 18-50 hours and valium's half life can be up to 200 hours. For any drug, it takes about 5 times the half life to build up in the body and to reach the so called "stable state". This is why it's so important to execute the process slowly.

 

I did a cross over from xanax to klonopin last summer. It wasnt easy, but I did it a bit too fast. It took weeks for my body to adjust to klonopin, but once it did, i was so happy i did it. I couldnt taper xanax due to the short half life and interdose symptoms. Now i have cut almost 1mg of klonopin since last august.

 

C/o is definately an option to consider. Good luck!  :thumbsup:

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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.   If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.

 

Note that 0.5mg of klonopin is equivalent to 10mg of valium according to the ashton manual.  What's the downside to that? It makes tapering easier then the "longer titration".

Also, as for adverse reactions, i have yet to meet one.  The benefits outweigh the risks IMO.  I did the crossover and highly recommend it.

I also recommend that you wisely consider advise you receive and weigh the advise of those that have been through a similar crossover and taper greater than the advise from those with no personal experience with crossing over to valium and tapering and/or titrating.

 

I  understand that BB forum rules preclude us from giving advice about non-benzo meds we don't have personal experience with; however, that doesn't seem to apply to benzo cross overs, titrations and tapers.  So, proceed with caution and use your own best judgment.

 

peace,

libby

 

Hi LibertyAdams,

 

I don't have personal experience with tapering, nor a crossover to Valium, however like Beeper, I've read thousands of posts and can tell you that a great many people who attempt a crossover to Valium have difficulty and have to go back to their original benzo.  This route is not for everyone and while we appreciate you sharing your personal experience, discounting the cautionary comments of another member is not appreciated.

 

Pamster

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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.   If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.

 

Note that 0.5mg of klonopin is equivalent to 10mg of valium according to the ashton manual.  What's the downside to that? It makes tapering easier then the "longer titration".

Also, as for adverse reactions, i have yet to meet one.  The benefits outweigh the risks IMO.  I did the crossover and highly recommend it.

I also recommend that you wisely consider advise you receive and weigh the advise of those that have been through a similar crossover and taper greater than the advise from those with no personal experience with crossing over to valium and tapering and/or titrating.

 

I  understand that BB forum rules preclude us from giving advice about non-benzo meds we don't have personal experience with; however, that doesn't seem to apply to benzo cross overs, titrations and tapers.  So, proceed with caution and use your own best judgment.

 

peace,

libby

 

Hi LibertyAdams,

 

I don't have personal experience with tapering, nor a crossover to Valium, however like Beeper, I've read thousands of posts and can tell you that a great many people who attempt a crossover to Valium have difficulty and have to go back to their original benzo.  This route is not for everyone and while we appreciate you sharing your personal experience, discounting the cautionary comments of another member is not appreciated.

 

Pamster

 

Pamster,

 

With all due respect, I didn't discount anyones precautions. I added some additional precautions based on my experience.  Also, you have often posted that we should only share our Rx drug info if we've taken the drug for which we are sharing the info. IMO, that should apply to benzo experience and taper or titration experience too.

 

It does seems odd that someone that has read thousands of posts would dangerously compare 2mg of V to .5 mg of k in a positive light stating "If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin." 

Doesn't this post concern moderators/admins/team?  A newbie could easily get into trouble with this kind of equivalence statement. 

Just trying to save a buddy from big troubles i.e. paying it forward.

 

peace,

libby

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All I said, LibertyAdams, is that the smallest size tablets valium comes in is 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  No where did I say or imply that they were equivalent.  And I have never posted that one should only express opinions about drugs they have personal experience with (though that does make sense to me); you must be confusing me with someone else.
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All I said, LibertyAdams, is that the smallest size tablets valium comes in is 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  No where did I say or imply that they were equivalent. 

 

Oh come on Beeper, you said its a downside that valium comes in 2mg vs. 0.5mg for k. Thats simply wrong and you should admit it.

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There's always a risk of an adverse reaction when switching benzos.  Sometimes the risk is worth it because interdose withdrawal symptoms are too severe.   If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  Just something to consider.

 

Note that 0.5mg of klonopin is equivalent to 10mg of valium according to the ashton manual.  What's the downside to that? It makes tapering easier then the "longer titration".

Also, as for adverse reactions, i have yet to meet one.  The benefits outweigh the risks IMO.  I did the crossover and highly recommend it.

I also recommend that you wisely consider advise you receive and weigh the advise of those that have been through a similar crossover and taper greater than the advise from those with no personal experience with crossing over to valium and tapering and/or titrating.

 

I  understand that BB forum rules preclude us from giving advice about non-benzo meds we don't have personal experience with; however, that doesn't seem to apply to benzo cross overs, titrations and tapers.  So, proceed with caution and use your own best judgment.

 

peace,

libby

 

Hi LibertyAdams,

 

I don't have personal experience with tapering, nor a crossover to Valium, however like Beeper, I've read thousands of posts and can tell you that a great many people who attempt a crossover to Valium have difficulty and have to go back to their original benzo.  This route is not for everyone and while we appreciate you sharing your personal experience, discounting the cautionary comments of another member is not appreciated.

 

Pamster

 

Pamster,

 

With all due respect, I didn't discount anyones precautions. I added some additional precautions based on my experience.  Also, you have often posted that we should only share our Rx drug info if we've taken the drug for which we are sharing the info. IMO, that should apply to benzo experience and taper or titration experience too.

 

It does seems odd that someone that has read thousands of posts would dangerously compare 2mg of V to .5 mg of k in a positive light stating "If you are dry cutting your pills, one downside of using valium is the smallest tablets they come in are 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin." 

Doesn't this post concern moderators/admins/team?  A newbie could easily get into trouble with this kind of equivalence statement. 

Just trying to save a buddy from big troubles i.e. paying it forward.

 

peace,

libby

 

LibertyAdams,

 

You use the statement "with all due respect" but I fail to see it in your comments.  Your statement "Also, you have often posted that we should only share our Rx drug info if we've taken the drug for which we are sharing the info. IMO, that should apply to benzo experience and taper or titration experience too." is incorrect; a member may share their experience or the experience of others as long as it's not prescriptive in nature, Beepers comments are not.  Let it go.

 

Pamster

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All I said, LibertyAdams, is that the smallest size tablets valium comes in is 2mg vs .5mg for Klonopin.  No where did I say or imply that they were equivalent. 

 

Oh come on Beeper, you said its a downside that valium comes in 2mg vs. 0.5mg for k. Thats simply wrong and you should admit it.

 

Hi wantalife,

 

Remember that mutual respect is always our guiding philosophy; we don't call someone out who happens to hold an opinion different from our own.  Let it go.

 

Pamster

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Hello All,

 

You usually only hear the horror stories of people doing a c/o. It was easy for me and I did a direct c/o with no withdrawal and minimal s/x. My s/x was, and still is to some degree, grogginess in the morning and I had to double up on my coffee intake. So I repeat... the crossover was a piece of cake for me. I am not bragging but I want it to be known that there are plenty of people like me. We usually only hear the horror stories. I atttempted a straight taper of Klonopin many times and this has been easier to date.

 

I envy you being able to still drink coffee..hehe...I don't like coffee, but I am huge fan of tea. Many people, as you probably know, have a problem with caffeine reving up symptoms. This happened to me near the end of my taper, and I have really not given it a good try yet to see if it still effects me. :) I do miss my green tea.

 

TC

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Hello All,

 

You usually only hear the horror stories of people doing a c/o. It was easy for me and I did a direct c/o with no withdrawal and minimal s/x. My s/x was, and still is to some degree, grogginess in the morning and I had to double up on my coffee intake. So I repeat... the crossover was a piece of cake for me. I am not bragging but I want it to be known that there are plenty of people like me. We usually only hear the horror stories. I atttempted a straight taper of Klonopin many times and this has been easier to date.

 

I envy you being able to still drink coffee..hehe...I don't like coffee, but I am huge fan of tea. Many people, as you probably know, have a problem with caffeine reving up symptoms. This happened to me near the end of my taper, and I have really not given it a good try yet to see if it still effects me. :) I do miss my green tea.

 

TC

 

TC,

If it weren't for coffee I wouldn't be able to function for the first two hours in the morning. My body is used to Klonopin and I dose once daily at night. Now I wake up with about as much diazepam in my system as I had before I went to sleep. They ain't lying about the difference in half-lives.

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[76...]

Just stopping by..

Klonopin is hard to come off of, it nearly killed me, literally.. I started tapering in 2007. I was at 5mg of Klonopin (usually) I stayed on high amounts. I c/o to Valium, and it has went better, but with Valium, my personal experience, taper slowly because yes, you feel better after a cut, but a toss here and there.. it adds up quick. I'm glad you found a smoother ride through this.

 

Keryn.

 

PS- I tapered to 2.25mg of Klonopin and it was hell, every cut, with valium.. it takes a few days, and the landing is a bit smoother, just listen to your body.

:)

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Just stopping by..

Klonopin is hard to come off of, it nearly killed me, literally.. I started tapering in 2007. I was at 5mg of Klonopin (usually) I stayed on high amounts. I c/o to Valium, and it has went better, but with Valium, my personal experience, taper slowly because yes, you feel better after a cut, but a toss here and there.. it adds up quick. I'm glad you found a smoother ride through this.

 

Keryn.

 

PS- I tapered to 2.25mg of Klonopin and it was hell, every cut, with valium.. it takes a few days, and the landing is a bit smoother, just listen to your body.

:)

 

I've done Klonopin tapers and I was up to as much 3mg/day.... so not a lightweight. I actually managed to straight taper to .5 mg a few times. I haven't really felt anything so far at my taper rate so I will stick with it. I'm not a newbie with tapers so yes I am listening to my body.

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Hi,

 

I have a few comments to add regarding Beeper and substitution.

 

First of all, if Beeper's comments were less that clear, I can assure you all that Beeper knows full well that Klonopin is 10-20 times more potent than Valium. I cannot begin to count the number of occasions Beeper has sent me a heads-up PM to correct one of my posts - these corrections are always welcome. I do invite members to post clarifications and corrections to the posts of other members, and this most certainly includes posts from the team. However, you can post clarifications/corrections or alternative perspectives without it coming across as a rebuke. You can get away with being plain rude to me, but I take exception to rudeness being directed towards other members, particularly those that give so much of themselves by joining the team. I don't wish to make too much of this, but no one here has given more than Beeper, so I feel compelled to comment.

 

As for potential problems when switching to Valium (or any other benzo): these do sometimes occur. As has already been mentioned, switching too quickly to a longer-acting benzo actually results in a drop in equivalent blood levels of benzo in the short-term, which might well result in pronounced withdrawal symptoms. I better detailed the reasons for this here. I talked on the phone with Prof. Ashton about problems associated with substitution, and she found in her clinical experience that this problem seemed to be more pronounced when switching from Klonopin to Valium. I am not suggesting that members should not consider switching from Klonopin, as most still manage the switch with few problems if they follow a sensible substitution plan. I do not recall Prof. Ashton offering an explanation for why there might be a slightly greater potential problem with Klonopin, but I would suppose that this probably results from a combination of Klonopin's differing therapeutic profile to Valium, and its shorter half-life. And, as has already been mentioned, some of our members felt compelled to switch back to their original benzo, even though they were following a sensible substitution schedule. This is why, if pushed to comment, I will suggest titration before substitution. Though titration ties down people to the kitchen, and it does not resolve all the potential issues associated with withdrawal from shorter-acting benzos, it does at least mean avoiding potential problems associated with switching medication.

 

There are no hard and fast rules with quitting. It is up to members to determine what they feel best suits them, and should understand that changes might be required to any withdrawal method and schedule. Members should not worry about this - it is just about tweaking the taper/method to best suits their needs.

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[76...]

Just stopping by..

Klonopin is hard to come off of, it nearly killed me, literally.. I started tapering in 2007. I was at 5mg of Klonopin (usually) I stayed on high amounts. I c/o to Valium, and it has went better, but with Valium, my personal experience, taper slowly because yes, you feel better after a cut, but a toss here and there.. it adds up quick. I'm glad you found a smoother ride through this.

 

Keryn.

 

PS- I tapered to 2.25mg of Klonopin and it was hell, every cut, with valium.. it takes a few days, and the landing is a bit smoother, just listen to your body.

:)

 

I've done Klonopin tapers and I was up to as much 3mg/day.... so not a lightweight. I actually managed to straight taper to .5 mg a few times. I haven't really felt anything so far at my taper rate so I will stick with it. I'm not a newbie with tapers so yes I am listening to my body.

 

Benzene,

 

My first time tapering anything.. We are around about the same mg. I hope it goes smoothly.

I have tapered a lot compared to where I was. The Equiv. of 100mg of Valium .. sometimes more, if you want to compare it to Klonopin.

Just taper slowly. We'll get there.

 

Keryn.

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