Help with Xanax to Valium crossover and tapering

[[Buddie]]

yeah, that was the issue when 10 years ago i was on valium. When i look back, i had only taken xanax for probably 2-3 months max...granted i was all over the board towards the end taking sometimes up to 3mG a day the Dr back then started me on 30MG of valium. Looking back that was way too much, i was dizzy all day and doing crazy things cause i was so high on it. And because of that it took me over a year to get off it because i had to step down off of 30mg. She should have given me more like 10-15MG. This last Dr. when i went in for valium tried to start me on 5MG valium even though id taken .5 for a few months so....yeah when i told her the crossover is 10MG she didnt like that. I think to become an EXPERT, they need to get an addiction going themselves and try to get off of it using all methods. lol. I mean the conversion tables are not that hard to find, do a google search for christs sakes its all over. How they come up with these numbers i have no idea.

[[Buddie]]

Hi
I apologize about my lack of signature. Been at interdose withdrawls for a month now Just joined. Xanax to sleep for 2 years from  .5 now 2.0. Take it in .5 increments. Sleep a couple hours then wake and do another.5 throughout the night.
There is something real wrong with that. During the day I don’t dose but have reached what I believe to be interdose withdrawls. Daytime working but that’s getting iffy. Any adivise would be greatly appreciated.

Was watching You Tube  Medicated Normal an interview with Dr Micheal E Bohan. He does the Ashton method with patients
He states that he violates Ashton in this one regard and  crosses right over first thing from whatever to Valium and he says it takes about a week wherein the patient will need a lot of support. Spell that OUCH. so yeah your words make a lot of sense. That’s an inpatient stratagem imo.

My NP just scribed me a 6 week of Valium and said switch. No problem. Dunno what I am gonna do. He is a by the box guy it would seem.

Tried to get me on Zoloft too during this bad stretch. Said should just be a headache.
5 days I Felt like someone was trying to remove my brain, semi hallucination bad images oh and wide awake all night. That 2.0 Xanax wouldn’t touch it! Oh and not to mention the constipation, weird vision, no saliva

Any words would be greatly appreciated.

[[Buddie]]

I dont really have any suggestions, back when i switched over to valium my ND at the time just did it...there was no cross over which isnt suggested. I didnt know at the time that there even should be a crossover. I have a feeling now looking back the reason it "worked" was because she had me on such a high dose to crossover. Like 3X the amount i should have had. Easy crossover? yeah no problems for me but it then took me forever to get off that dose, if shed known what she was doing i could have tapered in much less time. I was at the time having interdose withdrawls and was all over the place because i was taking anywhere between .5-3MG a day mixed with alcohol. I was just running scared and in a panic all day from that. Hopefully someone else will have a better idea for you than me. i never went through the cross over period from xanax to valium.

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...]

I just want you to know you can trust the information provided here on BB. You’re also not just trusting one person, because anything we post here is clearly open to scrutinisation. If one of us makes a mistake with the information we provide, then someone else will pick up on that mistake, as innocent as the mistake may be. This is one of the reasons why we don’t provide taper advice or information via the PM.

I’ve had doctors and hospital psych doctors with self professed 30 yrs experience in benzodiazepine withdrawal whom within minutes I immediately know they have absolutely no idea how to taper patients off benzodiazepine medications. I expect this is because they have been doing the wrong thing over and over for 30yrs, and god only knows how many patients have suffered because of that. I had one psych who didn’t even know the conversions between the different benzodiazepines and tried to put me on double the equivalent dose in a crossover. I called them on it and they just denied that I had any idea what I was talking about. I just had to dismiss her advise and follow my own knowledge. If I hadn’t have known, she would have caused me to taper for another year or two longer. I’m not bashing doctors, I’m just saying we have to be extremely careful when it comes to their knowledge of benzodiazepine withdrawal, which is why it’s so important we educate ourselves.

I know, it gets ridiculous. I tried "her plan" again beginning of this week. Turned into a disaster. Sorry but cutting from .5 to .25 every other night is literally the worst way FOR ME to get off of xanax. Maybe it works for her other clients i have no idea. What i know is for myself when i take the .25 i dont fall asleep. ALL NIGHT. Which then affects my mood and worry and anxiety for the next night. So even if i take .5 next night i might not sleep because of night before and anxiety that is there now. Its literally like the worst case scenario for way my mind works.  I finally just asked her for .25 pills so i can cut them up into 8 pieces. Take one piece away and hold until i feel ok for a few weeks. I dont care how long that takes. Then i take 2/8 out, then 3/8 ect ect. each time holding until i feel ok, i dont care how long it takes! That makes it a 12% cut at a time. Yes i know its higher than the 10% max cut but a hell of alot better than her 50% cut. I honestly dont understand that method, i would think you dont want to seesaw someone up and down like that. For a whole month straight! lolololol well maybe for someone out there.

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...]

I just want you to know you can trust the information provided here on BB. You’re also not just trusting one person, because anything we post here is clearly open to scrutinisation. If one of us makes a mistake with the information we provide, then someone else will pick up on that mistake, as innocent as the mistake may be. This is one of the reasons why we don’t provide taper advice or information via the PM.

I’ve had doctors and hospital psych doctors with self professed 30 yrs experience in benzodiazepine withdrawal whom within minutes I immediately know they have absolutely no idea how to taper patients off benzodiazepine medications. I expect this is because they have been doing the wrong thing over and over for 30yrs, and god only knows how many patients have suffered because of that. I had one psych who didn’t even know the conversions between the different benzodiazepines and tried to put me on double the equivalent dose in a crossover. I called them on it and they just denied that I had any idea what I was talking about. I just had to dismiss her advise and follow my own knowledge. If I hadn’t have known, she would have caused me to taper for another year or two longer. I’m not bashing doctors, I’m just saying we have to be extremely careful when it comes to their knowledge of benzodiazepine withdrawal, which is why it’s so important we educate ourselves.

I know, it gets ridiculous. I tried "her plan" again beginning of this week. Turned into a disaster. Sorry but cutting from .5 to .25 every other night is literally the worst way FOR ME to get off of xanax. Maybe it works for her other clients i have no idea. What i know is for myself when i take the .25 i dont fall asleep. ALL NIGHT. Which then affects my mood and worry and anxiety for the next night. So even if i take .5 next night i might not sleep because of night before and anxiety that is there now. Its literally like the worst case scenario for way my mind works.  I finally just asked her for .25 pills so i can cut them up into 8 pieces. Take one piece away and hold until i feel ok for a few weeks. I dont care how long that takes. Then i take 2/8 out, then 3/8 ect ect. each time holding until i feel ok, i dont care how long it takes! That makes it a 12% cut at a time. Yes i know its higher than the 10% max cut but a hell of alot better than her 50% cut. I honestly dont understand that method, i would think you dont want to seesaw someone up and down like that. For a whole month straight! lolololol well maybe for someone out there.

Hi [...]

Just wanted to give you heads up in regard to those 10% reductions - When we calculate the reductions at between 5-10%, we actually recalculate each next reduction from the remaining daily dose so the percentage never increases with each reduction. You can imagine, if you started your taper and intended to decrease at 10% based on your starting dose, by the time you get down to your second last reduction the percentage would have reached 50%. In the beginning, your brain is only experiencing a 10% reduction in dose, but if you keep reducing that same piece (weight) of tablet, then the percentage climbs with each reduction, and the brain finds it increasingly more difficult to cope and potentially, all hell breaks loose…

So if you follow this intended method and things become increasingly difficult with each reduction, this will be the reason why, and you will have to reassess your reduction percentages. 

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...]

I just want you to know you can trust the information provided here on BB. You’re also not just trusting one person, because anything we post here is clearly open to scrutinisation. If one of us makes a mistake with the information we provide, then someone else will pick up on that mistake, as innocent as the mistake may be. This is one of the reasons why we don’t provide taper advice or information via the PM.

I’ve had doctors and hospital psych doctors with self professed 30 yrs experience in benzodiazepine withdrawal whom within minutes I immediately know they have absolutely no idea how to taper patients off benzodiazepine medications. I expect this is because they have been doing the wrong thing over and over for 30yrs, and god only knows how many patients have suffered because of that. I had one psych who didn’t even know the conversions between the different benzodiazepines and tried to put me on double the equivalent dose in a crossover. I called them on it and they just denied that I had any idea what I was talking about. I just had to dismiss her advise and follow my own knowledge. If I hadn’t have known, she would have caused me to taper for another year or two longer. I’m not bashing doctors, I’m just saying we have to be extremely careful when it comes to their knowledge of benzodiazepine withdrawal, which is why it’s so important we educate ourselves.

I know, it gets ridiculous. I tried "her plan" again beginning of this week. Turned into a disaster. Sorry but cutting from .5 to .25 every other night is literally the worst way FOR ME to get off of xanax. Maybe it works for her other clients i have no idea. What i know is for myself when i take the .25 i dont fall asleep. ALL NIGHT. Which then affects my mood and worry and anxiety for the next night. So even if i take .5 next night i might not sleep because of night before and anxiety that is there now. Its literally like the worst case scenario for way my mind works.  I finally just asked her for .25 pills so i can cut them up into 8 pieces. Take one piece away and hold until i feel ok for a few weeks. I dont care how long that takes. Then i take 2/8 out, then 3/8 ect ect. each time holding until i feel ok, i dont care how long it takes! That makes it a 12% cut at a time. Yes i know its higher than the 10% max cut but a hell of alot better than her 50% cut. I honestly dont understand that method, i would think you dont want to seesaw someone up and down like that. For a whole month straight! lolololol well maybe for someone out there.

Hi [...]

Just wanted to give you heads up in regard to those 10% reductions - When we calculate the reductions at between 5-10%, we actually recalculate each next reduction from the remaining daily dose so the percentage never increases with each reduction. You can imagine, if you started your taper and intended to decrease at 10% based on your starting dose, by the time you get down to your second last reduction the percentage would have reached 50%. In the beginning, your brain is only experiencing a 10% reduction in dose, but if you keep reducing that same piece (weight) of tablet, then the percentage climbs with each reduction, and the brain finds it increasingly more difficult to cope and potentially, all hell breaks loose…

So if you follow this intended method and things become increasingly difficult with each reduction, this will be the reason why, and you will have to reassess your reduction percentages. 

Ill keep that in mind. Is that the same for valium? Like 10 years ago when i reduced valium i did it 1MG every 2 weeks. i was on 15 MG, and sometimes held for longer than 2 weeks depending on what was happening....but it seemed to work for me. Hopefully i can pull this off. If not and towards the end im freaking out, at least ill know why and can reasses and possible start crushing up pills and weighing. Thanks for the heads up.

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...]

I just want you to know you can trust the information provided here on BB. You’re also not just trusting one person, because anything we post here is clearly open to scrutinisation. If one of us makes a mistake with the information we provide, then someone else will pick up on that mistake, as innocent as the mistake may be. This is one of the reasons why we don’t provide taper advice or information via the PM.

I’ve had doctors and hospital psych doctors with self professed 30 yrs experience in benzodiazepine withdrawal whom within minutes I immediately know they have absolutely no idea how to taper patients off benzodiazepine medications. I expect this is because they have been doing the wrong thing over and over for 30yrs, and god only knows how many patients have suffered because of that. I had one psych who didn’t even know the conversions between the different benzodiazepines and tried to put me on double the equivalent dose in a crossover. I called them on it and they just denied that I had any idea what I was talking about. I just had to dismiss her advise and follow my own knowledge. If I hadn’t have known, she would have caused me to taper for another year or two longer. I’m not bashing doctors, I’m just saying we have to be extremely careful when it comes to their knowledge of benzodiazepine withdrawal, which is why it’s so important we educate ourselves.

I know, it gets ridiculous. I tried "her plan" again beginning of this week. Turned into a disaster. Sorry but cutting from .5 to .25 every other night is literally the worst way FOR ME to get off of xanax. Maybe it works for her other clients i have no idea. What i know is for myself when i take the .25 i dont fall asleep. ALL NIGHT. Which then affects my mood and worry and anxiety for the next night. So even if i take .5 next night i might not sleep because of night before and anxiety that is there now. Its literally like the worst case scenario for way my mind works.  I finally just asked her for .25 pills so i can cut them up into 8 pieces. Take one piece away and hold until i feel ok for a few weeks. I dont care how long that takes. Then i take 2/8 out, then 3/8 ect ect. each time holding until i feel ok, i dont care how long it takes! That makes it a 12% cut at a time. Yes i know its higher than the 10% max cut but a hell of alot better than her 50% cut. I honestly dont understand that method, i would think you dont want to seesaw someone up and down like that. For a whole month straight! lolololol well maybe for someone out there.

Hi [...]

Just wanted to give you heads up in regard to those 10% reductions - When we calculate the reductions at between 5-10%, we actually recalculate each next reduction from the remaining daily dose so the percentage never increases with each reduction. You can imagine, if you started your taper and intended to decrease at 10% based on your starting dose, by the time you get down to your second last reduction the percentage would have reached 50%. In the beginning, your brain is only experiencing a 10% reduction in dose, but if you keep reducing that same piece (weight) of tablet, then the percentage climbs with each reduction, and the brain finds it increasingly more difficult to cope and potentially, all hell breaks loose…

So if you follow this intended method and things become increasingly difficult with each reduction, this will be the reason why, and you will have to reassess your reduction percentages. 

Ill keep that in mind. Is that the same for valium? Like 10 years ago when i reduced valium i did it 1MG every 2 weeks. i was on 15 MG, and sometimes held for longer than 2 weeks depending on what was happening....but it seemed to work for me. Hopefully i can pull this off. If not and towards the end im freaking out, at least ill know why and can reasses and possible start crushing up pills and weighing. Thanks for the heads up.

Hi SFMA

Yeah, it is the same with Valium.

When you previously tapered from the medication, you were probably one of the luckier ones who had a relatively uneventful taper, but each time you go through this, it tends to make the next taper and withdrawal more intense. You may still be able to get away with that same taper rate (I certainly hope so) but if you notice your symptoms increasing and becoming much more intense, then you will be doing yourself a favour by adjusting more in line with the suggested guidelines of 5-10% reductions. 

[[Buddie]]

I understand completely about continuing to take the poison. I usually feel worse after I take it.  I pray that God sheds light on a way out of this for you, me and everyone who is affected by this crap.