Paradoxical after 4 weeks of attempted valium stabilisation. Help please

[[Buddie]]

Hi all,

I recently discontinued 2 x 0.5 per day klonopin cold turkey, it was 19 days before seeking help from doctor. She switched me directly to 10mg valium per day, 5 morning and 5 evening to stabilise before tapering. It helped slightly at first, although I now know it was not the equivalent dosage to the klonopin. Over the last week, the valium has been giving me less and less relief from symptoms and instead creating more and more anxiety straight after dosing. It’s not until hours later that the anxiety and agitation starts to subside enough to either sleep or relax slightly. I see the doctor today, but am unsure of my options to move forward. I know it just keeps getting worse so I feel I have little option but to start tapering without stabilising properly. I’m also on escitalipram 20mg per day for depression which has also increased over the last week, along with many other symptoms, including internal shaking/vibration, loss of appetite, and pain throughout my body, especially legs. I have read about paradoxical symptoms in the Ashton manual, and it urges to taper faster, but I’m just wondering if there’s anyone out there who has experienced this and found their way though, and if so, how? Many of the symptoms I mention above have been present since the 12th day of cold turkey from klonopin (although less anxiety). The Valium helped initially because of the sedative affect initially helping with sleep, but it’s actually the anxiety which has now gone through the roof after each dosing. I’m not in a good place and have minimal if no support around me, so I’m quite frightened at the potential decline in my ability to care for myself through the taper… preparing meals, shopping, washing, my share of housework etc. is there anyone out there who could offer some advise on what I should do? Is my only option to begin tapering now?

Any advice and/or encouragement would be greatly appreciated, as I am quite frightened by what I’m facing right now.

[[Buddie]]

Oh dear, I am sorry you haven't gotten any relief from the Valium.  To clarify, you've been on the Valium for four weeks now?

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...],

So sorry I haven’t replied. I must have missed it… early on I didn’t realise we don’t get notifications of a response. Obviously this is an old thread now and much has happened.
After a very short 4 or 5 day attempt to switch one of my 2 daily doses back to clonazepam, I decided (after much agonising) to stick with the diazepam. I’m now at 6.5mg per day (split in 2 doses), 3.5mg at night and 3mg daily. It’s been very rough, especially the last cut, which is strange because it was a 0.5mg cut rather than 1mg like the previous 3 cuts from 10mg down to 7mg. Symptoms have been no less intense with this recent cut and rather strangely, I didn’t feel the withdrawal symptoms hit until day 6 this time (instead of day 4, as with the others) and it’s now day 12 and this is the most intense it has been in some respects… many of the same symptoms like - terrible insomnia, anxiety, depression, intrusive thoughts, inability to experience any joy or pleasure, pain in legs, hips and pelvis as well as other aches and pains, extreme lethargy, nausea, loss of appetite, all of those last 3 creating a real battle to prepare meals and maintain weight… there’s general fear around the struggle, intense burning skin all over, and last but not least… the internal vibration or shaking which has never eased since cold turkey and switching to diazepam. CNS is in chaos.

I still need to add these recent cuts on to my history

June 25 - 8mg
July  6  -  7mg
July 22 - 6.5mg

Possibly I’m not giving myself enough time to level out enough before making a cut, but I’m going to sit at 6.5mg for longer this time. However, I have also come to realise that even at 0.5mg cuts, I’m still hit so hard that I simply can’t function or support my myself, so I’m wondering if there’s some information or someone out there who can give me some insight in to how to do a DMT or explain how to prepare smaller cuts more often using 2mg diazepam tabs, to smooth the taper and avoid being slammed by what my my brain seems to perceive as one BIG cut?

I ordered some scales from Amazon, but I’m not sure how to do the mathematics to prepare a sensible taper rate at 5 - %10 over 2 to 4 weeks using a DMT or small cuts every few days or so.

If you or anyone else can offer some advice on implementing such a taper, I would really appreciate it.

I have thought about liquid solution, but have had no luck with finding a willing doctor, and I just don’t want to put myself through more stressful conversations only to be turned down again. I am open to a home made solution from the 2mg tabs, but again… not sure how to navigate the preparation or the mathematics.

Thanks [...]


Warmly


P.S. I have to ‘finally’ get back to Libertas on another thread, so he may also be able to offer some information on this.

[[Buddie]]

Hi [...],

just like to I am tapering Diazepam. My story is also long, but in a nutshell I didn't have the proper information about Benzos and almost died from cold turkey and too rapid withdrawal. Months after I was in constant agony. When I finally did learn about what the f*ck was happening to me I had done crazy reductions in comparison what I should have done.

Anyway, fast forward to the present. I am currently on 3.4mg. Diazepam using tablets and liquid. My previous dose was 3.5mg. Diazepam, a 3% cut. 3.5 to 3.25mg. (around 7%) was too hard on me. I think you already know a lot about reductions and percentages.

Here's my advice to you: even a 1% reduction = tapering = cutting down = progress. No need to rush. Try looking for turtletaper / microtaper reductions: I found them very inspiring!

Best of luck,
[...]

Hi [...],

So sorry I haven’t replied. I must have missed it… early on I didn’t realise we don’t get notifications of a response. Obviously this is an old thread now and much has happened.
After a very short 4 or 5 day attempt to switch one of my 2 daily doses back to clonazepam, I decided (after much agonising) to stick with the diazepam. I’m now at 6.5mg per day (split in 2 doses), 3.5mg at night and 3mg daily. It’s been very rough, especially the last cut, which is strange because it was a 0.5mg cut rather than 1mg like the previous 3 cuts from 10mg down to 7mg. Symptoms have been no less intense with this recent cut and rather strangely, I didn’t feel the withdrawal symptoms hit until day 6 this time (instead of day 4, as with the others) and it’s now day 12 and this is the most intense it has been in some respects… many of the same symptoms like - terrible insomnia, anxiety, depression, intrusive thoughts, inability to experience any joy or pleasure, pain in legs, hips and pelvis as well as other aches and pains, extreme lethargy, nausea, loss of appetite, all of those last 3 creating a real battle to prepare meals and maintain weight… there’s general fear around the struggle, intense burning skin all over, and last but not least… the internal vibration or shaking which has never eased since cold turkey and switching to diazepam. CNS is in chaos.

I still need to add these recent cuts on to my history

June 25 - 8mg
July  6  -  7mg
July 22 - 6.5mg

Possibly I’m not giving myself enough time to level out enough before making a cut, but I’m going to sit at 6.5mg for longer this time. However, I have also come to realise that even at 0.5mg cuts, I’m still hit so hard that I simply can’t function or support my myself, so I’m wondering if there’s some information or someone out there who can give me some insight in to how to do a DMT or explain how to prepare smaller cuts more often using 2mg diazepam tabs, to smooth the taper and avoid being slammed by what my my brain seems to perceive as one BIG cut?

I ordered some scales from Amazon, but I’m not sure how to do the mathematics to prepare a sensible taper rate at 5 - %10 over 2 to 4 weeks using a DMT or small cuts every few days or so.

If you or anyone else can offer some advice on implementing such a taper, I would really appreciate it.

I have thought about liquid solution, but have had no luck with finding a willing doctor, and I just don’t want to put myself through more stressful conversations only to be turned down again. I am open to a home made solution from the 2mg tabs, but again… not sure how to navigate the preparation or the mathematics.

Thanks [...]


Warmly


P.S. I have to ‘finally’ get back to Libertas on another thread, so he may also be able to offer some information on this.

[[Buddie]]

I'm no math prodigy so when I switched to a liquid taper at the end of my journey, I did a water taper like this one only I used 50ml water instead of 300ml which meant I tapered over 50 days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whpciMUXHfY&t=131s

The caveat with this sort of taper is you must stir or shake it vigorously and dose immediately because using this method creates a suspention and not a true solution.  No math or percentages are required for this method which was appealing to me.  You can hold along the way with this method when and if necessary.  I do suggest that anyone considering this method stabilize where they are before proceeding with a switch to this method or any other method for that matter.

[[Buddie]]

Thanks so much, [...]

I will save this YouTube link for when I get lower.

As you mentioned, you would advise to stabilise before switching to another method, and I certainly can’t say I’m stabilised at this moment. I believe I’ve made some mistakes in my haste to get off the benzo’s. I went too fast (first 3 cuts 1mg each) without ever stabilising from an immediate Valium substitution after clonazepam cold turkey. Now at 6.5mg, I’m in continual CNS shock (internal shaking) along with a host of all the usual suspects, 20 days after only a 0.5 cut. It all caught up with me. I guess I’m learning a hard lesson about my own body chemistry.

I’ve decided that once I feel I’ve stabilised to what I feel is my baseline, I will try a dry cut daily micro taper using scales. Going slow!

Again, thank you so much!