I need a substitution schedule for Klonopin

Hi,

I decided to use the crossover to Valium method and I need a schedule.  I am now on 7 and .75 mgs. of Klonopin (tapered only .25 of 1 mg. for 2 weeks) and would like to start on Wednesday.  For some reason, and I've seen it many times before, I could not find the place where you name the information you need to make up a schedule.  I have been on the Klonopin for 10 months.  I don't know what else to tell you.  If you need to know something more, please let me know.

 

Could you please be very precise in your instructions because my brain is very foggy from being on Klonopin, 60 mgs. of Restoril, also Neurontin, Remeron and Topomax.  Sorry, but things come a little more slowly to me than they used to.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

I'm very nervous about this.

We don't have anyone who creates substitution schedules the way Colin does titration schedules but someone might be able to adapt one of the Ashton schedules for your situation.  We would need to know how much you take when, such as  3mg am, 2mg afternoon, 2.75mg bedtime.

If you've decided to crossover from Klonopin to Valium, you might as well do this with your Restoril as well and do it all at once.  What do you think?

Pamster,

 

I'll get back to Beeper after I answer you, or actually ask you - can you do that??  I thought getting off of two benzos at once was a bad thing!  Could you please explain?  Remember, there is no flexibility with the Restoril - it only comes in capsules.

 

Won't coming off of two at once cause me more withdrawal symptoms?  That's a lot of benzo I'm on.  You tell me, please.

As I was looking in Professor Ashton's crossover schedules I found one for both of your benzo's, so I thought, why not crossover both of them while you're at it?  I really don't see anything wrong with doing something like that, and it's not like you'd be tapering any faster, you'd just be substituting until you'd eliminated both of the other benzo's, then begin your taper.  If your Dr wanted to leave you on the Restoril for sleep issues, Valium would be even better. 

 

The only downside I can see is your Dr would have to prescribe you more Valium and by the time you were fully crossed over, you'd be at roughly 110 mgs of Valium.  Hopefully others with differing opinions to mine will speak up. 

Beeper,

 

It's Mebarb.  There was no reply button to the post you sent me.  You asked for my daily Klonopin schedule.  Here it is:

 

10 am - 1.75 mgs. (I just finished a 2-week taper of .75)

2 pm - 2 mgs.

6 pm - 2 mgs.

10 pm - 2 mgs.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't know that this forum didn't do crossover schedules for people like they did titration schedules.  I'm glad someone can do one for me like you said.  If not, I don't know what I would do.

 

Thank you so much.

Beeper,

 

It's Mebarb.  There was no reply button to the post you sent me.  You asked for my daily Klonopin schedule.  Here it is:

 

10 am - 1.75 mgs. (I just finished a 2-week taper of .75)

2 pm - 2 mgs.

6 pm - 2 mgs.

10 pm - 2 mgs.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't know that this forum didn't do crossover schedules for people like they did titration schedules.  I'm glad someone can do one for me like you said.  If not, I don't know what I would do.

 

Thank you so much.

 

Hi Mebarb,

 

I merged the thread you started addressed to Beeper with this one.  When you want to reply, just hit the reply button like you've been doing and we'll all see it.  If you'd like to use the quote button to address someone specifically like I've just done, you hit quote instead of reply, but before you begin your response, make sure you start typing below the last word quote.

Hi again Mebarb,

 

Schedule 6 of the Ashton Manual can give you an idea of what a substitution plan would look like for you, but since you're on a higher dose, it would take longer.  Just an example.  http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm

Pamster,

 

I sent a reply about the 110 mgs. of Valium after I taper, but I don't see it.  I don't understand what you told me - I'm sorry I'm so dense, really.  What does the fact that 8 mg. of Klonopin is equal to 110 mgs. of Valium have to do with it?  Could you please explain it further?  From a schedule I received from another forum (and I only trust this one), the highest dose of Valium per day is 50 mgs., so if you add it all up it is actually quite a bit more than 110 mgs.  So, obviously, I'm a lame brain!  Would you mind explaining it further?  I hate to waste your time on this one subject, but I really do want to do the Valium method, but if my Klonipin is too high, maybe I can't.

 

Can you help me, please? 

Beeper,

 

It's Mebarb.  There was no reply button to the post you sent me.  You asked for my daily Klonopin schedule.  Here it is:

 

10 am - 1.75 mgs. (I just finished a 2-week taper of .75)

2 pm - 2 mgs.

6 pm - 2 mgs.

10 pm - 2 mgs.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't know that this forum didn't do crossover schedules for people like they did titration schedules.  I'm glad someone can do one for me like you said.  If not, I don't know what I would do.

 

Thank you so much.

 

It just occured to me you may have difficulty getting a doctor to prescribe as much valium as you'd need for a crossover from 7.75mg klonopin since that is equivalent (per Ashton) to about 155mg of valium!  For this reason, most people taper down by dry cutting until they are at an amount their doctor will support, usually not more than 60mg valium/day (~ 3mg/day Klonopin).  Before anyone spends time trying to create a crossover schedule for you, you need to make sure you can get as much valium as you would need to do the crossover (155mg/day for at least a few months with slightly less over the subsequent months).

Oh wow, thanks Beeper!  Mebarb, I was incorrect in my estimation of how much Valium you'd have to crossover to, according to the equivalency charts, 8 mgs of Klonopin is equal to 160 mgs of Valium and if you add the Restoril on top of that, you'd be starting out at 190 mgs of Valium, I doubt your Dr will prescribe you that much Valium.

 

I'm sorry for adding to your confusion Mebarb, it's a good thing Beeper was here to let me see I'd miscalculated!  Please don't worry about wasting our time, this is what we do, try to help people and you're not a lame brain, this stuff is hard to figure out.

 

Beeper really made sense when she suggested that you taper from your higher dose of Klonopin to a more manageable dose before you cross over.  Dr's are hesitant to prescribe large doses of any benzo, it gets too much attention.  You might want to give your Dr a call and ask him if he'd be willing.  Here is a link to our equivalency chart in case you'd like to print it to show him. http://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

 

 

It doesn't matter because I talked to my doctor last night and he wants me to wait until a get lower and see how I am doing (he thinks I can go all the way as long as we go slow), and if I need to we will plug in the Valium, but I looked at that equivalency chart and don't understand it at all.  From the half life of Clonazapam and I guess the 0.5 is the Valium (I can't tell), where do you get the 160 mgs of Valium??

 

Like I said, it doesn't matter now, but out of curiosity I would like to know so I don't feel so stupid.  It is hard to figure out.  And I am in brain fog.

 

I will try to get down to 3 mgs. of Klonopin a day, but that is a big change from 8 mgs.  Don't know if I can do it without the Valium.  I'll have to talk to my doctor about it.

 

I see that you were on a very large amount of Klonopin.  How did you taper?  Did you ever cross over to Valium?  If so, at what point?

Sorry, Pamster, I just saw on your signature that you went cold turkey, so disregard my last questions.  I didn't remember that when I was typing my post.

Hi Mebarb!

Yeah some charts can be rather confusing.

If you look at the "Approximate dose equivalency", you'll see that clonazepam is listed as .5mg and diazepam is listed as 10mg. 

This means that .5mg clonazepam = 10mg diazepam.  So 1mg clon would equal 20mg diazepam.

 

Hope that helps.  It's confusing I know.

 

 

I will try to get down to 3 mgs. of Klonopin a day, but that is a big change from 8 mgs.  Don't know if I can do it without the Valium.  I'll have to talk to my doctor about it.

 

 

I hope the help cwj provided clears up your question about the equivalencies.

 

I wanted to ask what you meant by this statement above?  Do you somehow feel that you need Valium to help you taper from the Klonopin?  We can't use a benzo to help us get off of a benzo, I just wanted to make sure you understood how we do this.  Using this form of communication is difficult, so I'm just trying to make sure we're on the same page.

 

We've had many members dry cut their way off of Klonopin without ever crossing over to Valium, you can do this too.  Valium can be a nasty drug, it's known for depression and it can be terribly sedating.  Many people have trouble getting used to it and tapering from it, so if you can stick with your original benzo, then you might actually be more successful.  When you're done tapering the Klonopin you can start of the Restoril. 

Pamster,

 

Now I'm REALLY CONFUSED!!!!  What do you mean "we can't use a benzo to get off another benzo"?  Isn't that what the crossover to Valium is about?  Because the Valium has a much longer half life and causes a smoother taper, that's using a benzo to help get off another benzo, isn't it?  I must be phrasing it wrong.  I know I understand the crossover method, but, like I said, I must be phrasing it wrong.  Could you please explain this to me?  What statement did I make that you were referring to earlier that caused you to ask me, and I'm quoting you here:"Do you somehow feel that you need Valium to help you taper from the Klonopin"?  I feel that I need it for a smoother taper with less withdrawal symptoms, as Dr. Ashton states.  What am I saying that is wrong?

 

And, yes, I found out that Valium causes bad depression, and I can't afford that -- I already suffer from depression that is hard to treat.  Like I said, I am going to try to dry cut down to 3 mgs. per day of klonopin.  I just hope I can do it without too many problems.  I already suffer from anxiety and that is my biggest fear.

 

 

Hi Mebarb,

 

Man, sometimes I hate this form of communication, things can get so confusing.  I somehow read in your words that you felt you would need to take Valium to aid you in your Klonopin withdrawal, I'm sure now that I had this totally wrong.  I'm sorry, it's just that I try to pay such close attention to details, that I sometimes miss the meaning.  It sounds like you know what you're doing, so I'm sorry I've muddied the waters so many times the last few days. 

 

Are you ready to continue reducing the Klonopin, didn't you say you've already reduced it by .25 mg, correct?

That's o.k., Pamster, look at all the things I don't get!!!  I think I hold the record on this forum!

 

Actually, Tuesday I just began taking off .5 of a mg. which will be for 2 weeks. Like I said, we are going to go slow, because of my natural anxiety and my fear of this whole process.  When I asked my doctor if because I am naturally anxious would I be more prone to anxiety withdrawals, he gave me the vague answer of "I don't know - it's possible".  I think we know what he meant.

 

I'll try to remain positive and I'm trying to stay away from the bad stories in the withdrawal and recovery section - they just make me more scared.  I'll only read the success stories.

 

Thanks.   

Thanks for being understanding about the difficulty of this type of communication, it's even more difficult because of the nature of benzo withdrawal which challenges our cognitive abilities.

 

You sound prepared and determined to get on with this, two key ingredients for a successful taper. 

I just wanted you to know that the c/o from Klonopin to Valium helped me cut a lot out and I could not come off the K directly.. Klonopin and Valium do have different uses, I can tell, Klonopin was rough, Valium is smoother to come off of.

K

Hi Mebarb,

 

Just wanted to say I agree with Keryn in that it was easier for me as well to come down from the valium than the clonazepam.  I was on Xanax too and c/t that.  I was lucky to not have any withdrawal just getting off that one drug but had to stay on the 3 mg of clonazepam.  I read Ashton's Method and it made sense to me.  I used it with some slight modifications for me.  I had sleeping problems so I cut the afternoon and morning out before the evening.  Ashton writes that the schedule is just a generic one and you can use it as you see fit.  I will say that the valium made me extremely tired in the beginning.  I had some time off in the summer so I was able to be lethargic but after that I cut a little quicker to be more awake.  I think by getting down slowly to a lower dosage of the clonazepam you would be able to use the schedule to help you c/o to valium.  I found it was smoother as Keryn did. 

 

Oh, and not "getting it" is perfectly normal.  I was a mess the first time I came on here.  I had no idea what I was doing but just read and learned.  I agree to not read too much about the symptoms others get because everyone is so different.  Your mind can play tricks on you and you don't need that at all right now.  Just have a plan and remember sometimes the plan changes based on how you feel and what is going on in your life.  It looks like you are on the right track and your doctor seems open to changing the plan if needed.  That is good news.  I had a doctor who just wrote me what ever scripts I wanted and trusted me to do what I wanted.  That is not the norm and probably wouldn't work for everyone.  There are also a lot of doctors that aren't willing to work with their patients.  It sounds like your doctor is going to help you out.

 

Good luck!!  This is a great place to come and get advice.  Pamster gives great advice. 

 

 

Oleander

It doesn't matter because I talked to my doctor last night and he wants me to wait until a get lower and see how I am doing (he thinks I can go all the way as long as we go slow), and if I need to we will plug in the Valium, but I looked at that equivalency chart and don't understand it at all.  From the half life of Clonazapam and I guess the 0.5 is the Valium (I can't tell), where do you get the 160 mgs of Valium??

 

Like I said, it doesn't matter now, but out of curiosity I would like to know so I don't feel so stupid.  It is hard to figure out.  And I am in brain fog.

 

I will try to get down to 3 mgs. of Klonopin a day, but that is a big change from 8 mgs.  Don't know if I can do it without the Valium.  I'll have to talk to my doctor about it.

 

I see that you were on a very large amount of Klonopin.  How did you taper?  Did you ever cross over to Valium?  If so, at what point?

I was taking a truckload of Ativan and I cold turkey'd then reinstated with 3mg of k and started tapering from there.  I DON'T RECOMMEND THIS- IT WAS HELLLLLLL!  But the point is that you can taper off of the K (I started tapering from 3mg k and I'm currently at 1.75) and then switch once you get down to a much lower level of k.  Klonopin isn't anywhere near as difficult to taper off of than the shorter acting benzos (ativan and xanax for example).

I'm considering crossing over to valium once I get down to .5 mg of k, it'll depend on whether I can get a script for it

IMO it doesn't matter that you are at a very high level of Klonopin- tapering sucks regardless of where you start.  This high amount just means it'll take longer to taper   I think I saw on this board that there have been members who tapered off of outrageously high levels of xanax and ativan, and they did it smoothly and slowly.  You can do it too