*UPDATED* Pls help! klonopin vs. valium to taper for person w/ tolerance?

I am really torn trying to decide & develop a taper plan. I'm hoping to get your wise advice. Thanks in advance.  

Since last night, I've been really thinking that maybe valium isn't better than the klonopin for me to taper off. I have never had any insomnia or mental health or anxiety issues in my life ever previous to 2008. Previously, I had terrible things happen in my life but I never had severe anxiety, an attack or missed a night of sleep. Ever. then in 2008 (after 5 yrs of valium for my muscle spasms), I started having palpatations, insomnia, anxiety & anxiety attacks even though my life was (and still is) going better than it has in a long time. I also had the electric shock feeling. This didn't happen every week but as the past 2 yrs unfolded, these new symptoms happened more & more. I went to every kind of dr. for this & a reason was never found. One dr thought it was andrenal fatigue a few months ago but my coritsol tests were all normal. i have mitro valve prolapse & fibromyaliga (since 02) but i dont believe that had anything to do with what was happening. it was only after my benzo w/drawal got severe during the end of my valium taper last month that i realized the severe w/drawal symptoms were like mild versions of what i had been experiencing since 08. thats when i researched & realized, it was tolerance w/drawal! i had no idea. my new dr doesnt believe it, he says it must be an anxiety disorder. i told him its not. i truly believe it was tolerance w/drawal.

 

i have not had an anxiety attack or even had any anxiety since i started the knlonopin. i still have palpatations & some insomnia though but less. my question is: do you think if my new doc will prescribe liquid klonopin so i can go down VERY slowly, do you think it'll be better to taper off klonopin as opposed to valium. i know the life of it is shorter & its more potent but bc im so tolerant to the valium...im thinking now it may be the better choice to taper of klonopin. please let me know what you think. thanks a lot  

 

maris

 

Hi Maris,

 

You sound scared, please don't be!  You can taper directly from the Klonopin, except for Valium, it has one of the longest half lives.  Many folks have been successful, so try not to worry.  I can see the indecision is making things rough for you, so the best thing you can do right now is to make a plan and get started.

 

This is going to be the last time you have to do this, the last time you ever have to worry about benzo's, take heart okay?

 

I don't know anything about liquid Klonopin, but you have every right to take it slow and to try to minimize the effect this will have on your life.  We're here for you.

 

Pam

 

Hi,

 

I looked into crossing over at one time...and then later decided to come directly off Klonopin....I am unsure about the liquid Klonopin....but even if this is not a possiblity....there is a process called titration that would allow you to come off the medication as slowly as you would like....you can make really small cuts.....as little as one percent or a half percent....of the dosage.....

 

Titration has really helped me alot...I have gone from 2mg of Klonopin to 0.2 mg of Klonopin using this process.....it does require a few things to get started..like a 100ml cylander....a pill crusher or mortar and pestle.....a syringe.....and a couple other things ...but I think I spent less than 20 bucks on all the equipment involved and it has really paid off....I generally cut about .03 mg per week....all the way from 1mg....and I am nearing the end of my taper...I can count all the symptoms on one hand.....with insomnia being the worst...but that did not even start until i hit about .28mg......up until that point..I was sleeping really well....

 

If you would like more information about titration..just ask..and we will do our best to help you out...

 

TC

PAM & TC- Thank you both. last night was rough. i couldnt sleep. my other symptoms were/are now almost as bad as they were when i was in severe w/drawal during my too fast valium taper last month. i barely slept so this probably has a lot of typos

 

i talked to my dr on the phone today. he has phone hours everyday where he asks his patients to call in for a quick check in. i told him how bad my w/drawal symptoms were at the moment & he said i should go up on the klonopin. he said im not on enough & that he knows i want to get off & he'll help me w/ that eventually but first he wants me up go. i declined. i asked him about an eventual valium c/o. he said no b/c he doesnt like valium. i asked then how does he do a very slow klonopin taper & he said cut them in quarters...i feel really down right now.  my w/drawal symptoms are bad. im exhausted & cant sleep. Benadryl  & melatonin are not working at all (this is how it got towards the end of my failed valium taper). i dont think this dr is going to help me. i go see him on tuesday. ill try to talk to him in person but i doubt ill change his mind. i dont know what to do...

yesterday i combined my .25 k am & .25 k pm to just a .5 at night. i did this after i asked my doc. i wasnt sleeping good so i thought but the dose should all be at night. the 7 yrs i was on valium, i took it all nightly. do you stick combining them yesterday coulve caused me to feel this way today. if i stick to what i revised today, a quarter of a .5 klonopin  in the am. then take the rest of the .5 pill (left from cutting the quarter) & .25 at night. im hoping i stabilize.

 

how would a c/o schedule look? do you know? i read ashton but still am unsure. thanks so much for your help anyone who is reading this.

i feel so down today b/c of how bad my symptoms arel & that conversation w/ my dr. if i am tolerant to valium like i believe, then going back on it is not going to help these w/drawal symptoms. i cant stay on klonopin though if my withdrawal symptoms arent even good on the klonopin anymore. i dont know why theyre so bad if im still on .5 klonopin. i cant imagine how being on less would feel then. not good im guessing.

 

anyway, sorry for being such a downer. its just how i feel right now. i think if i could get help on a c/o schedule then i would feel better. do i have to post somwhere differnent about that? im sure tomorrow will be a better day (as long as i get some sleep tonight).

 

thanks a lot,

maris

 

PS- i forgot to say that i could do a valium taper w/out my new D.r b/c i have a lot of 5mg valium & could get more. i could also got more 2mg from my internist. thanks again

I had a hard time too deciding which way was out of this mess but it was good to know the ways..

 

since you changed your dosing maybe that's gonna help you get stable, I sure hope so and wish you much luck.

 

SUNDAZED- thank you so much. i hope so too. i also hope everything goes okay with you as well.

 

if anyone is reading this, i think i explained it wrong yesterday even though i thought i explained it right. sorry.  i take a total of .5 klonopin daily

AM- 1/4 of a .5 pill.

PM- 3/4 of a .5 pill.DOES ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW WHAT A C/O sCHEDULE WOULD LOOK LIKE? PLEASE HELP IF YOU CAN. THANKS!!

Hi ThePaintedVeil

 

Tapering directly from Klonopin using titration is a good way go get off of Klonopin. This method eliminates the additional time and possible depression or other symptoms you may experience with a

valium cross over that you do not now have. Titration will give you the ability to make up multiple portions of your daily klonopin dose which will help you to avoid inter dose withdrawal, thus compensating for the shorter half life of klonopin. With titration you will be able to make much more accurate cuts than are possible with dry cutting of any med. As TC said titration will let you

make very small daily cuts that can not be done accurately with dry cutting. When you get to a real low dose titration will make it possible to cut to a much smaller jump off dose that is possible

to with any accuracy using dry cuts. When you dry cut every week or two you give your body a shock. The cuts with titration can be equal in total size/time period to dry cutting but give you a more gradual reduction thus minimizing the shocks to your body.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Teakettle

thanks tea kettle. im still afraid of titration. im scared i wont do it accurately. valium was my original benzo. ive only been on klonopin a month. i want to cross back but im not sure what the right path is honestly. my new doc doesnt support a valium c/o but i have enough pills to do it w/out him. i have to think about it more. if i dont c/o i'll have to learn more about it so until i feel confident about it. thanks for your reply =)

Schedule 5 is the Klonopin to Valium crossover and taper, it might give you an idea of how to complete your crossover if you decide to go that way. http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm

 

If you're having unbearable symptoms and you're really scared, maybe you should do as your Dr suggests and go up in dose.  Then maybe you can stabilize and start a nice slow taper, slower than cutting your pill in quarters.  Titration from what I've seen around here is not as hard as it looks, have you seen the videos we have?

PAM- thank you. i am trying very hard not to go up in dose unless i absolutely have to (like im awake for days or something terrible like w/ what happened w/ the valium taper last month). im hoping so badly this just stablizes somehow. yesterday & today are better. i hope so much this continues to be the case. thank you, i looked at ashtons c/o schedule but i still dont know how to personalize since she shows it w/ such high #s. do you or anyone reading this, know what a schedule would look like for:

AM- .125 knlonopin

PM- .125 klonpin PLUS .25 klonopin.

Pam if you dont know, do you know anyone on here i might be able to ask? thank you

i did see videos a kind member on here sent me from youtube. im not sure if those are the same videos you have. if i decide to stick w/ the klonopin afterall, i will look them up. thanks again.

Hi Beeper,

I'm sorry to bother you. I was just wondering if you or someone you know can please help me w/ a c/o schedule from klonpin to valium (valium was my original benzo until last month)? I'm not good when it comes to this stuff so I'm hoping someone w/ more experience could help. If you are unsure, could you please forward this or give me the name of someone who you think may be able to help? Thank you. I would like to keep the biggest dose for the night b/c of insomnia

thank you

anyway, if a quarter of a .5 pill equals .125 as ive read then im currently on:

AM- .125 knlonopin

PM- .125 klonpin PLUS .25 klonopin.

what would a c/o schedule to valium look like?

thanks very much!

take care,

Maris

 

Hi, Maris.

 

I need to answer this here in case I get it wrong.  There isn't a schedule in the Ashton Manual for the small amount of klonopin you are on so I'll be kind of making it up.    According to Prof Ashton, .5mg klonopin = 10mg valium and substitutions can be made every 1-2 weeks until you are on nothing but valium.  A sample crossover schedule for your current dose schedule is as follows:

 

Start:                   .125mg klono +  .375mg klono = .5mg klono = 10 mg valium

 

Step 1:                .125 mg klono + .25mg klono + 2.5mg valium = 10 valium

 

Step 2:                 .125mg klono + .125mg klono + 5mg valium = 10 mg valium

 

Step 3:                 2.5mg valium + .125mg klono + 5 mg valum = 10 mg valium

 

Step 4:                 2.5mg valium + 7.5mg valium = 10 mg valium

 

Some people find valium more sedating than the benzo they are on and end up not needing the full amount indicated by the equivalency table.  This is one of the places where "listen to your body" comes in to play.  I hope the crossover method of tapering works out well for you. 

Hi Thepaintedveil,

I decided to do the crossover from klonopin to valium last year.  I really did not know too much about any problems with crossover or that there was any other way to really go.  I read the Ashton manual, took it to my doc and was very insistant that that was the best route to go.  She reluctantly agreed.  I crossed over to 60 mg. diazepam (valium). Honestly, I did not have really any problem doing so.  I took all of my klonopin in the am (4mg.) and I was in tolerance for years.  I was not really sure how to schedule the taper as Ashton says to take the valium 3 times a day.  I did 3 times a day for a few weeks and then I gradually switched my dosage as I tapered to 2 times a day and then just once a day.  I did have withdrawl symptoms but they were not incapacitating.  I did run into problems though when I decided to jump ahead of schedule and go way too fast.  I did the 2 week Ashton schedule.  I did like the diazepam taper in that the tablets come in 2 mg. tablets and I was able to cut them in small increments to take smaller cuts.  This was especially important at the end.  I hope this helps you a bit.          Ginia

Hi Maris,

 

I can share my schedule with you, it's different than yours, but maybe it will help.

 

Start: .25 mg K am

 

Week 1: .125 mg K + 2.5 mg V pm (over the course of two days I switched from am to pm because of the sedating effects of the Valium)

 

Week 2: Stop K; 5 mg V

 

After this I'll either decrease by 1 mg per week of .5 mg per week depending on how I feel.

 

From everything I've read, if you don't want to do the titration method (which I decided against because it was just too much for me to handle--another source of anxiety) the cross-over to Valium is the best way.  Valium has a longer half life and can be cut smaller.  I'm sure that I'll have trouble along the way, but it won't be as bad with the Valium as with the Klonopin.

 

Also, I was advised that I could go right from .25 mg of K to 5 mg of V if I wanted to.  I'm a worrywart, so I decided to do it in two steps, but you could substitute your .25 mg K for 5 mg V in the first week (pm) and then substitute your other .125 + 125 K for 5 mg V (2.5 in the am and 2.5 in the pm) in the second week. 

 

Good luck.  I'll be looking out for how you're doing.  Levine

BEEPER- Again, I wanted to say thank you. I just compied the schedule down on paper. Thanks again!

 

GINIA- Thanks a lot for your reply.  I'm so glad your c/o was smooth. I hope mine will be too. Valium was my original benzo for 7yrs up until last month when my too fast taper failed & i was put on klonopin. the only thing that gives me pause about going back to valium is that i had tolerance w/drawal the past 3 yrs like you had w/ the klonopin. that's the only thing that scares me about the valium. hopefully all will go well & i will be benzo free too! I'm so happy it worked out for you. Thanks for your response. =)

 

LEVINE- Thanks for your post & for sharing your schedule. I am afraid to titrate too. I feel like I'll screw it up somehow. If my tom. my doc agrees to liquid klonopin, I would stay on that only b/c the last almost 3 yrs on valium i had tolerance w/drawal. my dr. is against valium & pro klonopin but i still dont think he will give me liquid klonopin. i'm pretty sure i'm going to have go back to valium (my internist will write the scripts so thats not a problem). I'm so interested in how your c/o goes since we're in somewhat similiar shoes. i really think it'll go well for you since you're not tolerant to the valium. i did mine too fast (1mg a week) so my only advice would be to please go slow, especially towards the end. please keep me posted. good luck & I'll have my fingers crossed for both of us!

HELLO BENZO BUDDIES!

I've been dying to get home to tell you my doc has OKed liquid klonopin! yay!  

im super excited about this. Because of my valium tolerance, I'm going to try this route first. the bad news is he wants me to wait one month bc he'll be out of the country. In one month, i made an appt & he said i could go down as slow as i like. i REALLY hope this works out. please cross your fingers for me. i really need this to work.

 

has anyone gone the liquid valium route? i would like to pick your brain a little please.

thanks for listening!

 

 

Wow, I've never even heard of liquid klonopin.  Well, congrats...that's awesome.  Keep us updated with how it's going. I'm on day four of my crossover to Valium.  It's going okay.  It's very hard for me to distinguish between the actual withdrawal symptoms and the anxiety about the possible withdrawal symptoms causing me physical problems.  My anxiety has always come out in the form of physical problems--I've had major bouts with dizziness, interstitial cystitis and symptoms of IBS, among other things.  I've learned to talk myself down from many anxiety issues, but right now I'm so baffled about what's what.  I just keep reminding myself that klonopin and valium and chemically the same and shouldn't cause me major problems. 

 

Anyway, I'm stealing your thread here and talking about myself.  Congrats again...it's such a huge step knowing that you have a doctor on your side!

Levine

LEVINE- Thank you. I will definitely keep you updated. I'm glad your c/o is going okay. I have IBS & IC too. I've only ever "met" a few people w/ IC. are you doing any treatment for it? i tried elmiron & bladder instillations but nothing helped. i also have pelvic floor dysfunction which is why i was given the valium in '03.if you dont mind me asking, are you on the east coast? i'm just wondering if you ever found a good Dr. that you could private message me. I had a big shot doc but nothing ever worked excpet physical therapy for the PFD. i go every 2 weeks. anyway, i really hope your c/o continues to go okay & maybe even gets a little bit smoother for you. Oh, don't be silly. Talk about yourself all you'd like. My ear's always here.

I'm glad you found a Dr willing to work with you on a taper, it really helps to have an MD on your side. 

I've rarely met people with IC myself.  I actually first took Valium because a doctor I was seeing for the IC gave it to me.  At the time I was kind of ignorant and didn't know that it was even a benzo.  Luckily, the doc had me on a low dose (2mg) so I never had a problem.  I'm not actually symptomatic right now with the IC and I've been okay for the last two years.  I had trouble for about four years and I did have a good doctor who was located in Queens, NYC, but I don't honestly remember his name.  He stopped taking my insurance and I stopped seeing him.  I can tell you he was located at Long Island Jewish Hospital.  What really helped me was an IC website where I learned what foods triggered me to have pain.  IC is so terrible, I'm sorry to hear that you're dealing with it.  My physical symptoms seem to jump around every few years. 

 

If you're interested I can try to find the name of the doctor, I don't mind, but I'm not sure where you're located.

 

Levine

 

 

Just a cautionary note, switching from klonopin to valium is the hardest crossover, IMO. I believe Ashton also notes this. I have read many stories of people struggling with it, but it can be done. I did it the wrong way (switched half the dose over night), and suffered some bad w/d for the first 2 weeks of my tapering. You should be fine, especially with the schedule that Beeper laid out. Just don't be afraid to make the switch even more gradual if you start noticing problems.

PAMSTER- thank you, it really does help. i just hope it works out. thanks again

I can't believe we had the same doctor!  The world is really too small.  I'm glad now that he stopped taking my insurance because I would have kept upping my dose as well.  Two good websites: ichelp.org and ic-network.com

 

Sorry I can't help with the liquid klonopin, I'm doing the Ashton method myself.

 

Levine

LEVINE- i know it is really small. I'm glad he stopped taking your insurance too. i wish he would've stopped taking mine. =) i will check out those sites. thank you. the weather is supposed to be great this weekend. i hope you enjoy it & i hope your symptoms aren't too bad.

 

take care,

maris