need help with klonopin to valium cross-over

Hi.

 

I am currently taking .25 mg of klonopin once per day.  I tried to dry cut down to .125 mg and spent a miserable week getting increasingly sicker until I went back to .25.  I'm interested in doing a cross-over taper to Valium, similar to what I've read about in the Ashton Manual.  I have taken Valium in the past and have not had much difficulty with withdrawal. 

 

I'm new to this board, so I'm not sure if I'm posting in the right place, but I'm looking for a taper plan.  I'd like to submit this to my psychiatrist as she seems to think that stopping .25 should be easy and has no other advice for me. 

 

Thank you. 

Hi levine

 

To do a cross over you of course would need the support of your doctor. Maybe by taking in a copy of the Ashton Manual for the Doctor to look at you would be able to convince the Doctor to work with you on a cross over. Most U.S. Doctors do not like the idea of a valium cross over and will usually suggest that you use Klonopin to taper.

 

You are fortunate that you have a Doctor working with you who is Benzo wise enough to suggest a taper.

 

Teakettle

Thanks for the response Teakettle.  Now I'm reading about titration and I'm wondering if this is a better method than the switchover to Valium. Anyone have any thought on what method is better when I'm on a very low dose (.25mg) of klonopin?

Hi levine

 

Knowing what I now know about Benzo withdrawl I would do a direct titration taper. Valium cross over takes more time, may cause depression and other symptoms related to valium use that you do not now have. Titration of any drug gives you the ability to make small (.01mg) daily cuts (avoids the body shock of larger weekly/biweekly dry cuts) and will let you cut to a very small ACCURATE

jump off dose (.01mg) which is not possible to do with dry cutting.

 

Teakettle

Hi levine!

Which ever way you choose, you can count on us all for support!! I am a graduate of Ashton's method. When I made my appointment, not only did I take Ashton's manual with me but I also gave this copy to the phsych to keep and study. I was fortunate in that I was also seeing a therapist at that time. I had a very good repoire with this person and I think that given my history of communication with these people encouraged the psych to be more supportive towards me with anything whch I thought I needed. I assured the psych that once on the substitution/taper that I would keep a journal and also inform him of my progress. All in all, it went pretty well for me, however, I did hit a few bumps in the process.

Using a titration plan may have made things go quicker and perhaps less complicated. I must say that during all this time, I was not a member of this forum and so I simply had no knowledge of titration or any other method. Ashton's method was simply the ONLY one I was familiar with... There were also some rather severe work/life issues that I was dealing with at the time and I must say that going from klonopin to valium eased the severe inter dose withdrawal I was experiencing and allowed me to continue working in a rather difficult work situation which I am happy to say I left behind! It was tricky at first going to the valium and I did experience some bouts of lethargy and depression. I found that by reducing my dosage from Ashton's recommended dosage substitutions in her manual did the trick.

Let us know how things go...

Best wishes to you on a successful taper and a fresh, new life filled with happines!!

Thanks for the awesome reply. I have a question: I'm worried about withdrawal effects when I change over from klonopin to Valium. I'm not too worried about depression as I have a strong support system for that right now. It's the physical problems that make this unbearable for me. As a teacher I can't deal with GI problems (not able to leave my room) and the dizziness and muscle aches of klonopin withdrawal are no fun. How did your crossover go (besides the depression?).

 

It's so great to know that people have gotten through this! Thanks.

Hi levine,

I did notice a slight amount of w/d as the klonopin doses got smaller and were replaced by the valium. This was pretty mild and was nothing like that symptoms I was having before starting the substitution. This mild w/d was temporary and was gone within a few days. I considered the crossover to be my first in a long series of triumphs!

Let us know how things go for you. I'm often around the open forum and if you have any more questions, I'd be glad to help you!

Wishing you much success and happiness!!

 

 

Hi Levine,

 

I myself am pretty sure i've decided that i'm going to do a klonopin to valium c/o. i have the same worries as you do. i dont have any advice. i just want to wish you good luck. i hope this goes well for both of us! 

 

take care,

maris

Hi maris!

I read your sig line. It looks like you've had some rather unfortunate experiences with irresponsible doctors! Sorry to hear about this! :'(

I recall that the psych that I saw was about to recommend me to the resident adictive medicine doctor that they have at the medical center. When I asked him what the standard treatment was for benzo dependancy, he told me 1 week of phenobarnitol. This was not an option for me and I'm so glad that I discovered Ashton's method in the meantime, no thanks to the psych...

The last time I saw the psych before my taper ended, he agreed to a prescription for me to take neurontin. I had read about this med possibly aleviating withdrawal symptoms in Ashton's manual... As it turns out, the end of my taper and symptoms that I've dealt with since, have been much more manageable then I would have imagined. So, I never did take the neurontin. I did leave it in the medicine cabinet just in case, but I can see now that that isn't going to be necessary. I have taken melatonin pretty regularly for some time now. It's really helped me to negotiate sleep especially when the withdrawal got intense. I also take low doses of remeron. Right now, I'd say that it's not really doing much for me but I also don't wish to taper from this just yet.

I will keep both you and levine in my prayers. I wish you much success!! Let me know if there's any way I can help you and I will do my best!

I started my cross-over to Valium yesterday.  I took .125 of K and 2.5 of V (I had previously been taking .25 of K).  Yesterday after I took the meds was a bit rough--I think that my body was getting used to a new med being introduced to it, but by the evening I was okay and today I'm doing okay.  I realize that I'm going to have to cut out caffeine.  I drank my usual cup of coffee today and immediately got dizzy and stayed that way for hours.  I also stopped taking my vitamins after reading on another forum about how those might make the taper more difficult and I believe that that has helped as well.  The real test is how I'll feel by mid-week when I normally would get sick from cutting my Klonopin dose. 

 

I also switched to dosing at night as Valium seems to be sedating and I have insomnia troubles. 

 

I'm definitely glad I chose this method.  The titration method seems great, but it makes me nervous for some reason--too much room for human error...

 

Good luck to you Maris and thanks Pangelingua.

Hi levine!

So glad to hear that your feeling better today!

Caffeine can definetely aggrivate withdrawal reactions and is not highly recommended especially as the taper gets lower. If you've been a coffee drinker long term, you may consider a slow taper from it instead of cutting it out all at once. Just a suggestion. Your body will let you know... In my case, I remained a coffee drinker!

There were some adjustments that I went through when going from klonopin to valium but these were small compared to the problems I was having before. Once you've completely crossed over and have stabilized on the valium then you can attempt the tapers. I believe that Ashton recommends about a month cross over period and once this is completed, 2 weeks between each tapers. After the cross over has been completed and you find the valium dosage to make you too lethargic or depressed, you may consider adjusting down the dosage. This is what I had to do. Just some suggestions and food for thought... You'll learn more about how you should proceed as you go along. Just continue sensibly, and confidently and you will do well!!

If you haven't already done so, I highly recommend making a printed copy of Ashton's manual that talks about individual symptoms and how to deal with them. Lots of great info there!!

Wishing you the best!! I'll keep checking on you to see how you're doing!

Take care always,

pangelingua

Hi Levine,

 

I was just wondering how you were doing w/ the cross-over. I hope that you are feeling okay...or at least not terrible. Thinking good thoughts for you. 

 

Take care,

Maris

Hi Maris,

 

Thanks for thinking of me.  I'm doing pretty well.  I've just completed one week on only Valium (5 mg) and tonight I make my first cut to 4.5 mg.  I've played around with the idea of going faster, but I think that I shouldn't rush this.  I'm so glad to have the klonopin out of my body--If my math is right, then after about 6 half lives I should only have 1-2 percent of the meds left in my body.  That means about 8 or 9 days.  Today was day 7 off the klonopin...so that's a good feeling. 

 

How are things for you?

 

Levine

It's good you picked a plan and stuck to it.  So many people struggle with indecision, then when they finally make one, they second guess themselves, wondering if they make the right one.  Of course, all of this ramps up their stress which ramps up the symptoms.

 

Yes, it might be time to say goodbye to your coffee, but just for awhile until you can reintegrate it back into your life.  We have to have our pleasures, right?

hi levine,

You sound like I did after I successfully made the crossover! This is one giant step!

Wishing you continued success and a great weekend!

pangelingua- i was just read through levine's thread before i was going to reply & i saw that you wrote to me last month! i didn't see it until now! I'm very sorry. thanks so much for writing to me. i'm glad you didn't waste your time & $ on a "specialist" like i did. he actually suggested pheno if the neurontin didn't help but i googled it & declined. im glad you did too. i honestly don't think the neurontin is helping but im afraid to taper both at the same time.  glad you never tried it. in your message you said you were near the end of your taper. what is your does now? i really hope your symptoms are still under control. it gives me hope to think maybe my 2nd taper (starting july 8th) will go better than the 1st. i hope! again, i apologize for not seeing your message sooner. i should check that option that says to alert me when a reply is postest on a thread i've replied to.  take care

 

LEVINE- I'm so happy things are going well for you & the klonopin will be out of your body in a few days. that is wonderful! I'm so happy your c/o was successful. Things are going pretty good here. I'm hoping that means I am stabilizing on the .5 klonopin (tomorrow is one month that I've been at this dose). My doc is on vacation for a few weeks. while he's away I'm trying to line up a pharmacy that he can call a prescription into when he gets back the end of June. So far the local ones don't make it but I think I have a lead in VA. My husband took some vacation days through July 7th so I won't start my taper until July 8th. I don't want to interfere with his plans for us. I hope things keep going well for you.

No apologies necessary, painted veil!!

I finished my taper on Feb 16, so I will be 4 months free soon!! I still have the bottle of unused neurontin in the medicine cabinet. I'm glad that I was able to get through the final stages without this... I did take some valerian about twice a week towards the end of my taper. I don't know if this is recomended, but it help take the edge off some of the symptoms I was having. I still have symptoms that pop up from time to time but they are manageable. Mostly, what I have is an extra sensitivity to life stresses which is about what I had pre-benzo! The difference now is that I have intermittent nerve pain that appears off and on. As I said, this is all manageable and I've learned to accept this as part of my condition for now. It never lasts very long. I'm just glad that I'm putting more distance from my last dosage. Now, I just have some personal, emotional issues that I have to work on. Life just keeps on going!

Anyway, you and levine are definetly in my thoughts and prayers and I'm wishing you both lots of success and happiness with your life and taper! Rejoice in all the good windows and always remember that these come back again and again!!

Hope you have a wonderful Sunday!!

Hi Maris and Pangelingua--Thanks to both of you for thinking of me.  Pangelingua, it must be such a great feeling to be off the benzos.  Every day away from them must be a small victory.  Maris, the stabilizing sounds like a good plan.  As much as I want off of this stuff, it seems like rushing it is foolish.

 

Pamster2: I make a new withdrawal plan at least twice a day every day  .  But on the day of my first reduction I was so incredibly anxious about the thought of reducing that I realized it would be foolish of me not to go slowly.  Deciding to do .5 mg a week has made me feel less anxious.  I'm hoping to be able to stick to this schedule, but if I feel too crappy I might slow down.  For me, every two weeks I'll feel victorious having dropped a full milligram. 

 

I made my first reduction last night (I take my pills before bed) and I felt pretty bad today.  Not unbearable, but bad.  GI issues--couldn't eat, but then got low blood sugar so I felt sick, achy body and tinnitus.  I'm curious from other people taking valium about when they usually feel the cuts.  I was surprised to feel sick right away, I wonder if I have much more in store for me this week? 

Hi levine!

Sorry to hear that you're having a bit of a rough spell. Unfortunatley, when we go through symptoms while tapering can be rather unpredictable. You may be experiencing some withdrawal from being off the klonopin. I recall that I did get some withdrawal also as I made the cross over. It lasted about 3 or 4 days but was manageable. After the crossover, I waited about 1 1/2-2 weeks before I made the next cut which was .5mg, the same as you. In the begining of my taper, I would wait about 2 weeks before cutting .5mg. I would notice symptoms start after 5-7 days. These could sometimes feel intense and I had different ways to cope with them. First of all, I would remind myself that any pain I experienced was my body's way of healing. I learned through these trials that acceptance and love toward my body and CNS was a must! I can remember sending my mind and body really loving thoughts and saying how much I appreciated it that they were communicating with me in an effort to heal... I also would listen to some guided imagery for stress podcasts that I downloaded through my health insurance website. Lots of soothing relaxing excercises on these! Positive imagery, breathing, and seld talk, and muscle relaxation... it all helped!!

There were also some occasions when I had to take a slight detour from my progress, but overall, I kept going! I had a bad situation occur when I had planned to jump at .5mg... Five days later, I caught what must have been the nastiest flu ever! My wife had gotten sick with this the week before. She has never taken benzos and I remember her telling me just how nasty it was! Stomach cramps, severe muscle and body aches. Bad enough even without benzo problems! So, I had to reinstate my dosage of .5mg and start again... Regardless of the setbacks, I still made it and I know you will too!! It sounds like you are doing a sensible taper! If, later on, you find that you have to extend the cuts out longer, don't feel bad! You will make it! I'll keep checking on your progress!

Take care, and have a great week!

pangelingua

LEVINE- I think you're being very wise not to rush it especially since you're at a low level. I cut  1mg a week w/ my valium taper. I wish I had done less especially towards the end. I really believe if I had, my taper would've been a success & I wouldn't be in the predicament I am in now w/ the klonopin & neurontin. i really hope the symptoms you're feeling today lessen tomorrow. Keep us posted please.

 

PANGELINGUA- Thanks for understanding. Congrats to you on being nearly 4 months free!   That is wonderful! I'm glad the valerian helped you. I tried it for sleep but it didn't help, then I found melatonin. You're the first person I've "met" who takes it. How many mgs do you take if you don't mind me asking? I wonder what the max is. I'm glad your symptoms are manageable & lots of luck on the work you want to do. Thanks for the encouraging words. Just wanted to say I love what you wrote under your default pic (so sweet). Take care

Hi painted veil! Thank you so much for the kind words!! My wife has truely been a part of my strength and I thank her often for putting up with my moods! She has been my faithful companion and I hope to have many years with her!!

As for the melatonin, I take a 3mg tablet and split it into 4s making them a .75mg dosage. I used to take this every night (at a 3mg dosage), but now I'm down to about 3 times a week. I was concerned for a while that I might develop a dependance on this, but the good news is that I sleep just fine without it! I'm so glad that this supplement worked for me and it's good to hear that it works for you also! There was a long stretch of time during my taper that I thought insomnia would become a problem. The melatonin worked well for me in that it literally gauranteed that I would fall asleep 30 minutes after taking it! I put out a thread some time ago about 'concerns with melatonin use' and the feedback I got is that this was NOT an addictive substance. Of course, it's never a good idea to rely on something like this to fall asleep for long periods of time... For shorter term, it seems to be fine... I did notice that as my taper got lower that the 3mg dosage was causing me some extra symptoms. It was then that I reduced the amount and I haven't had any problems with it since.

Anyway, thank you again for the kind thoughts and I'm wishing you continuing success and happiness!!

Any other questions and I'd be happy to help you!

PANGELINGUA- you're very welcome! wow, that's great that so little melatonin works for you!  i started 3mg last july (i believe i had tolerance w/drawal then that was causing insomnia but at the time i didnt know what it was from). then in the beginning of april when the insomnia got extra bad towards the end of my last taper, i took 6mg a few times. when things got extremely bad w/ the insomia mid April-late April, i tried 10mg but even that didn't work (nothing worked. pure hell). now that things are...i guess i would say stable recently, ive been taking 3mg-9mg depending on how bad the symptoms are. on a very bad night even 9 wont work. ive taken remeron 5 times since april on those horrible night but im trying not to. when im back to normal again, i will definitely get rid of the melatonin. i dont like relying on something to sleep but i will until things go back being business as usual. thanks for the nice words & i wish you continued happiness as well! take care

Hi Levine,

 

How are you doing?

Hi Pamster2,

 

Thanks for asking.  I'm having a good day today.  This weekend was pretty miserable, but yesterday and today I've been doing well.  Extremely mild and bearable symptoms.  Today, I even forgot for a while that I wasn't a totally "normal" person.  These good days have given me some hope again.  After feeling sick on Saturday and Sunday (and early Monday morning) I was down and out, but now I'm hopeful again.  As long as I can have more good days than bad, I think I'll make it.  I'm a teacher, so I only have 3 weeks left and then I can deal with this over the summer. 

 

How are you feeling these days?

 

Levine

 

 

Hi Levine,

 

I'm doing great as usual, I've been healed from my benzo ride a year and a half now, everyday is good for me!

 

Isn't it amazing how we're all over the map with the good days and bad days?  What other process does this?  We get jerked all over the place, not knowing from one day or one minute to the next how we're going to feel.  We can't make plans, we don't know what to expect, we're afraid to relax and trust the good times, because we know, we'll get slammed! 

 

I'm glad summer vacation is almost here, but a word to the wise.  Keep yourself occupied and distracted, that's the key to making it through this with your sanity in tact!  I'm sure you've already got a jam packed summer planned, so try to make the best of it.